Dr. Stanley Milgram defined obedience as “the psychological mechanism that links individual action to political purpose.” What do you think encourages obedience? Is it fear of punishment; a desire to please; or is it a need to go along with the group? As some students watched the film Obedience, they laughed at the people receiving the shocks. How do you account for that laughter? Is it because something was funny or was there another reason? Those who study human behavior say that laughter can be a way of relieving tension, showing embarrassment or expressing relief that someone else is “on the spot.” Which explanation is most appropriate in this case? How did some of the volunteers act as they administered the shocks? What pressures were placed on them as the experiment continued? How and when did they decide to stop? Did you identify with any of the volunteers you observed in Obedience? What did you learn that you didn't know before you watched this film?
43 comments:
I think that obedience is encouraged by a desire to please. People have the natural tendency to want to make themselves look better. It combines a fear of punishment with the possibility or reward or praise. Praise is craved which is why people do naturally what they are told; they want to be told they did well. Personally, I didn’t find anything funny about that video, even if someone was not really getting shocked. I think the laughter was partly a nervous laughter. Sometimes certain emotions are difficult to express and convey but laughing seems to ease that tension. Although inappropriate it is natural and a mechanism people use every day to avoid uncomfortable situations. I think it also had to do with the disconnection shown between the “teacher” and the “learner”. They were placed in separate rooms as to not see each other. That made it harder for the teacher to sympathize with the learner. Although they received the 45 volt shock, they still could not fathom what they were doing to the other person. This definitely was a factor that caused many people to continue giving the shocks. It was clear that the man we saw was uncomfortable giving those shocks all the way to 450 volts but he continued. He didn’t stop even when there was a strong possibility of the other man being hurt. Because the teacher could physically see that the learner was hurt, he could pretend that it was okay. The teacher trusted Milgram, who ran it, that no one would be hurt but I don’t believe the teacher cared about that. I think the main reason he continued was because nothing was affecting him. Milgram said he would take all responsibility for the learner. The teacher chose to continue shocking because he had no reason to stop other than the well being of a stranger. This man and all the others that continued on cared more about following orders than another person. They cared about pleasing the authority figure because that would made them a good listener and obedient. Certain people decided to stop only after the learner had yelled multiple times or went silent, possible dead or seriously hurt. I think that the minority that stopped were the ones who could sympathize with the learner and didn’t care about the experiment. Milgram said the same thing to everyone when they tried to stop but some decided he was wrong. They did have a choice and they chose to make the right choice. I learned that the power of one important person can change innocent people and that many don’t have the strength to follow their own morals when tested in front of authority.
The desire to please is what encourages obedience because in this instance they were never threatened with punishment if they did not complete the experiment o that was not the reason for it. I believe that the laughter is a result of how someone else is on the spot. I say this because one of the men that was laughing said he had thought it was funny because it was not him being shocked, but at one point once it had gotten serious he then stopped. Some of the people stopped it part way through and others argued continually but ultimately proceeded on. The pressures placed on them were to finish the experiment for the man and to also not hurt the person who they were punishing. The people that decided to stop did it around 150 volts because they then heard the pain they were causing. I identify with the people who stopped around 150 because i would do it until I knew i was causing serious harm. I learned that is long as the blame is on someone else most people will do things they would ordinarily not do if given the order. I also agree with what Julia had to say about how an authority figure can make lesser people compromise their morals.
james yi
i agree with julia
i think that the the person should of keep raising the volt up when the other person got the question wrong. i think that the person who was told to keep raising the voltage up when the person got the question wrong he should not of listen to them.
I think obedience is encouraged when someone feels pressured to listen to orders. The man telling all the others to keep going with the experiment was very powerful and knew exactly what to say to them so that they would keep following his orders. People in class probably laughed because it relieved some tension. It's not actually funny at all but some people think that laughing about it makes the situation a little less tense. The volunteers that administered the shocks started to feel uncomfortable during points of the experiment, but continued to give the shocks. Most of them didn't listen to their gut feeling and then instead, let the man pressure them into doing something they didn't want to do. They were told that the experiment would have to be discontinued and that they didn't have a choice but to keep going. Hearing these things would make someone feel scared and make them obey people with power. Some people stopped when they absolutely had enough and wouldn't listen to the man anymore. Others did the experiment the whole way through. I think the man that claimed that he had enough and had the choice to stop, did the right thing. I feel as if I would have done something similar to what he did. I learned that some people have a really hard time standing up for what is right and they will let someone talk them into doing something that they would rather not do.
Julia has a point when she says that obedience is encouraged by a desire to please. Everyone wants to fit in and not anger those who have power. Many of the volunteers were afraid to disobey the man telling them what to do and they allowed him to boss them around.
I think that obedience comes with fear of consequence and the need to please. The man shown who went through 450 watts and back continued once he was told that he would not be responsible in anyway. He also continued when the professor told him he had to continue and not ruin the experiment. He put aside his morals and what he knew was right and continued to "harm another man", or so he thought. Whether he was doing any actual harm to someone or not is irrelevant, he still was under the impression he was causing pain to another person and continued even after pleas. He laughed during the process under nervousness, he kept feeling uncomfortable each time he hurt the man and continued to do so.
I agree with avalon that the man felt pressured to do what he was told, not wanting to disobey his orders. i also think i would have gave in however, and felt uncomfortable hearing someone scream in pain that i was causing.
I believe that obedience is encouraged by the the desire to please. Many people will do things that they wouldn't necesesarily do on their own because they are being encouraged to do so. Peer pressure ties into this. I believe many people value their image over their morals sometimes, and they feel as if following what others tell them to do will make them better off. I believe the laughter in the film Obedience was a sign of nervousness. The people shocking couldn't see the pain they were inflicting on the shock victims and they were nervous for how they could react so they had a tendency to laugh. the one man that continued shocking up to 450 volts continued simply because he would not be to blame if something were to happen to the man he was shocking. He was concerned about his liability rather than the actual safety of the man. I learned from this film that obedience can side over morals even when obeying goes against what a persons morals happen to be.
I agree with Avalon's comment where she mentioned that some people can be very easily manipulated into doing something they would otherwise not do. Some people are just so self centered and ignorant that they don't care about anything but their image and will do anything to maintain it.
Obedience is encouraged by the desire to please.It makes people feel accepted and proud. The scientist who was conducting the experiment told the "teachers" repeatedly that the shocks could not hurt, and everything he said sounded in an intelligent way, which made the "teacher" feel inferior and that the scientist must know best. Many of the teachers continued to shock the learners because they knew they would not take the fault for anything bad that could occur, so it didn't matter to them.
I agree with Abbey that obedience is also encouraged by fear of consequence. The main reason someone does what they're told is so they know there will be no punishment if they do as instructed. This was shown through the man who asked the scientist if he would take full responsibility for the outcome of the experiment.
I think obedience is encouraged by a desire to please. People like to be praised, which is why they do what they're told. There's also a fear of punishment that contributes to why people are obedient. The people shocking were told that it was essential that they continue the experiment. Most of them were obedient because they wanted to please the man conducting the experiment. They were also obedient because they were being told that it was the right thing to do. Even though they were hesitant at times, being told this lessened the feeling of personal responsibility. They were able to feel like they were simply following orders, and not intentionally doing anything wrong. I think the laughter was a result of nervousness. They weren't really sure how much pain the man being shocked was in, so they laughed as a way of easing this tension.
In the movie the man didn't have a chose to leave the place that explain that when the Jewish people didn't have chose to lave the Gamine. Nazis people were not treaty the Jewish people good like in the movie when the man was getting the Lakota shot.
I agree with Julia's comment about the disconnect between the teacher and the learner. The teacher couldn't completely know what the learner was experiencing even though the teacher was shocked once before starting the experiment. This made it easier for the teacher to shock the learner without feeling as bad about it.
I think we all grow up listening to others tell us what to do. This obedience becomes quite natural and many people look for a leader follow or listen to. if one person knows what they are doing others less knowledgable will most likely follow or listen to them. I think the laughing is definitely nervous laughing and just releases tension in this case. Some of the people giving the shocks made sure they weren't responsible for the person on the other end of the shock and then continued. As the shocks got larger the people became worried for the well-being of the "learner" and if he would be okay.
I also agree with Avalon that obedience is encouraged when one is pressured to listen. Obedience makes us "fit in". If we all listen then we are all doing the same things.
I think it is all of those things: a desire to please, a fear of punishment, and a need to go along with the group in order to accomplish the first two. The laughter is probably because we are glad it is not us receiving the pain, and to deal with our uncomfortableness at thinking of the pain. Some people decided to stop once the learner was protesting and asking to stop, or slightly after that. They could not go on because they felt uncomfortable doing it against the person's will, and the clear presence of another human being undergoing pain made them uncomfortable (and the fact that they were the one causing it). I learned just how easy it is to obey an authority figure without realizing it, and how often we do it. For example, in the beginning before the experiment, the lab coat guy kept giving them subtle orders such as to take a seat or take your jacket off.
I agree with Johanna, it is a natural instinct to want to follow a leader or authority figure. It saves us the effort of having to think for ourselves, and it is easier to follow orders blindly than to think about our actions and take responsibility. That's what makes obedience so dangerous.
I think that obedience is encouraged by a desire to please. The man was encouraged to go through the shock and not feel the need to take responsibility. He felt that he shouldn't go on with the shockings after he heard the learner not yelling anymore but the man kept telling him to do it. The teacher obeyed him and kept going. I think that the student's laughter was a cause of nervousness. I personally didn't think it was funny for a person to be shocked. I also think that students laughter was because hearing the learner being shocked caused nervousness to avoid that situation. The teacher was at one point laughing about the situation. He was nervous about what would happen as a result of going up the volts. He was pressured into doing so which caused him to be nervous.
I agree with Sam's comment some people could not go on because they were uncomfortable doing it against the person's will. Once they heard the learner talking about their heart conditions or not responding, they were uncomfortable about the situation.
I think obedience is encouraged by the fact that human nature is general submissive. People have the tendency just to accept something because they are being told to do it regardless of their personal opinions. Praise gives rationale to the submissiveness by showing people that their actions of doing what they are told is what to do. The laughter in the class was nervous laughter because they were uncomfortable with the situation and the fact that the person was being shocked at such high voltages. As the experiment continued, more pressure was placed on the teachers to fight against the authority figure in the test case and make decisions for themselves. I identify with the group that stopped after realizing what they were doing to a person. I learned through this video a lot about human nature and how it can be bent and manipulated.
I agree with Julia. A lot of human nature also tends to want to feel socially accepted. Putting a person in a situation where they are expected to do something, such as shock another person, forces them into a position where their morals take over and they either conform to society and how it wants them to behave or they can make their own choice.
I think that during the experiment the reason that the 'teachers' continued to administer the shocks was because of desire to please. They were assigned a task, and they did not want to fail at their assignment. The reason some of these teachers, as well as students in the classroom, laughed at the learners getting shocked was hopefully due to being nervous. I'd like to think that nobody actually found the idea of another person being in serious pain humorous. The varying voltages of shocks that different teachers were willing to give depended on how much each one sympathized with the learner. For some, as soon as they heard cries of pain from the learners, they refused to continue. Once these teachers heard the learner ask to stop, they refused to obey the commands of the instructor. These teachers had a great deal of sympathy for the learners, and they were genuinely concerned about they other person's well-being. However, other teachers were willing to go up to the highest voltage of shock. These teachers heard the cries of the learners and knew how much pain the learners were in but as long as they were assured that they would not be held responsible if anything bad happened, they were willing to continue. These teachers were the ones who did not sympathize with the learners. As long as they own well-being was guaranteed, they were not concerned enough with the well-being of the other person to stop administering pain to him.
I agree with Meghan that people often consider their image over their morals. People get so caught up in impressing their peers that they sometimes become willing to do something they know is wrong. This was the case for a few of the teachers in the experiment. Their morals clearly told them that shocking another human being was wrong, but some continued to do it simply because they were told they were "supposed to."
I believe that people obey to because they don't want to face the consequences and also to please. I feel that some of the students in our class were laughing because I think it's human nature to laugh at someone else's expense. Some of the volunteers went against the experiment because they didn't want to hurt the people they were testing while others went with it. The person conducting the experiment was pressuring them to do it otherwise the experiment won't continue. One thing I learned from the film was how easily a person can do something even though that person may not want to do it.
I agree with Julia Arsenault. I believe people obey to please someone they like and they also do it to feel worthy to someone.
I think that people followed the orders given in the experiment because they were told that they wouldn't be responsible for what happens to the man they shock. I think that the laughter was from the sort of random off screen noise that occured when the shocks were administered. It was unexpected, sort of weird sounding, and you couldn't actually see the guy who was(n't) being shocked so it's not really an unnatural thing to laugh at.
I agree with Julia on how the fact that the teacher could not see the learner made the teacher able to laugh while if they had been able to see the learner they probably wouldn't have laughed.
I believe that obedience is encouraged by the the desire to please. People in society are interested in being well-liked and being obedient aides in the process of being well liked. This experiment was almost scary seeing these men willingly shock someone because they were ordered to do so. One man who went up and back down the shock line was even laughing at one point. Although it might have been out of nervousness it is disgraceful that someone would laugh at someone else's pain that they are inflicting upon another man. Although I am skeptical about the learner being shocked I believe that they were not really being shocked but a voice recording was the cries of a man with pain. Legally I think it would be impossible to have such high voltage shocks without the learners consent. Ultimately, the teacher had a choice whether or not they wanted to shock a helpless man and because someone just said that they were to do did not justify what they did to the students.
I agree with Julia I found that there was absolutely nothing funny about this video. Although some teachers might have been laughing out of nervousness, I do not think it was appropriate that kids in our class were laughing at someone being in pain.
i agree with julia in that obediance in part is encouraged by the desire to please but also i think obediance has a direct realationship to the intellegence of the person who is taking the order. in the Migram Experiment the first couple people that they showed that stopped at 150 volts seemed to be much more intellegent that the man that went all the way up and all the way down for the paycheck at the end.
I think people in human nature want to follow someone. They want to go along with the group and fit in. The laughter was to alleviate the tension of the situation. Some people were very adamant to stop others were reluctant but willing.
I believe that the teachers within the experiment were obedient because they felt the desire to please as well as fear of being punished. For example the teacher who was omly willing to continue as long as the responsibilty was not on him illustrated how he did not want to get punished but wanted to please the scientist by continuing on with the experiment knowing that he was hurting someone. The teachers who felt that they were being immoral and were not willing to hurt the men shows that they were being disobedient and not willing to hurt other people to a great extent.The experiment was demonstrating how people immediately trust people who are said to be in power or have authortiy. A connection I have made to this film is from an episode of Law and Order. One of the guest stars, whose name was Milgram, complained about how people automatically trust those in power and how we need to make choices and decisions on our own. The people in this experiment were not being shocked however the teachers did not know that and trusted Milgram that the people were in no danger. I believe this shows how trusting and obedient people are to authority figures.
I completely agree with Meghan that people put their images above their morals. They are willing to overlook their morals to try to look better in other peoples eyes.
I agree with Julia, the prescense of an authority figure makes people truly fight against their own beliefs to the point where they are willing to toss away their own morals in order to comply.
I believe that obedience is a combination of the desire to please, fear of punishment, and tendency to follow the group. I think that for some people one aspect may be of greater influence than another, however each exists naturally in the human makeup. I think that the laughter was caused by a nervous reaction that the teachers faced when realizing they may actually be harming the learner. This film really made it clear how easily man can be swayed when given a task and continued to be pestered about finishing a commitment.
What encourages obedience is either fear of the person demanding something from them or respect to the same person. The laughter is a result of human nature not nervous laughter. For some reason humans enjoy seeing things like people getting shocked but only to a certain extent should it be funny just like when it got up to a high amount of volts there was no laughter. Most volunteers reacted poorly after giving the shock punishment after reaching a certain volt even the few that went all the way to the highest volt did not seem to enjoy it. The pressure of potentially injuring or even killing the student was on their mind. Most decided to stop at 150 volts which was the first time where the student yelled to a certain point where it seemed like he was actually hurt and began to ask to leave. I wouldn't have gone on after the man complained about the pain and asked to leave and that he didn't want to do it anymore because after that it is considered torture. I think I learned a little bit about human nature and how it plays a big role in our society.
I agree and disagree with pat's first statement. There is a desire to please but only if the person they aim to please has earned their respect and loyalty or is a follower themselves.
I think it's really neat how Catherine was able to make the connection to Law and Order. It shows how even now the subject is tested in society and that it is still an issue that we as people need to work out.
I think people obey orders so that they can avoid punishment. They just want to be liked so they just follow the group so that they don't stand out.
I agree with Erin Moore that people just want to be liked.
its hard to imagine anyone who would hurt someone just because they were following orders. i think it's important to note how the last guy kept going because the administrator said he would take full responsibility
Abbey Correnti makes a good point. i think the need to please is what got most of them in the end
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