Thursday, December 4, 2008
Milgram Experiment - Period 1
Milgram has defined obedience as “the psychological mechanism that links individual action to political purpose.” What do you think encourages obedience? Is it fear of punishment? A desire to please? A need to go along with the group? A belief in authority?
As some students watched the film Obedience, some laughed. How do you account for that laughter? Is it because something was funny or was there another reason? Those who study human behavior say that laughter can be a way of relieving tension, showing
embarrassment or expressing relief that someone else is “on the spot.” Which explanation is most appropriate in this case?
How did the volunteers act as they administered the shocks? What did they say?
What pressures were placed on them as the experiment continued? How did they decide whether to stop?
Did you identify with any of the volunteers you observed in Obedience?
Post your reflective comment by the end of the day on Friday, December 5th and make a comment to another student’s post on Saturday, December 6th.
Mr. Gallagher
29 comments:
I think that what encourages obedience is a mixture of all the factors: fear of punishment, a desire to please, a need to go along with the group, and a belief in authority. I know that personally in my life i have obeyed certain people with reasons for at least one of those conditions for each situation. I personally did laugh while watching the film.
At the beginning, before we learned that the experiment was a fake set up, I laughed because the sounds the victim made after the shocks were slightly amusing. Once the shock made it to 150 volts, the man started complaining saying, "Let me out! Let me out! My heart is acting up! Let me out!" My reaction was, "Holy *insert noun*, this guy is in a lot of pain. This is kind of disturbing." The fact that the man was being put in (fake) pain was not funny. What made me laugh was a combination between the sounds the victim was making and the reaction of some of the "teachers" how THEY were laughing. As soon as we learned that the experiment was set up and it was an act, I found it actually funny because the teachers were freaking out about nothing when they thought it was very serious.
The volunteers were all extremely disturbed by having to administer the shocks to the victim. They went along with it very easily before the victim started hollering and yelling to let him out. They mostly all refused to go on with the experiment or they were very upset with having to continue.
Pressures that were placed on them as the experiment continued were put on them by the head of the experiment. He would say things like, "It is vital to the experiment that you MUST continue with the shocks until the learner has correctly answered every word pair." This put some serious pressure on the teacher because as much as they didn't want to, they were being strongly convinced to continue. Once it just became too much for them, and really began to go strongly against their morals, most of the teachers just 100% refused to continue.
I definitely identified with the volunteers. If I were in that position, there is no way that I would have been able to continue with the experiment if I knew I was causing another human being serious pain (especially one with a supposed "heart problem").
The Milgram Experiment proformed at Yale University was a est of the obedience of the subjects involved. I believe obedience is encourged out of fear of what will happen if one does not obey their instructions. It is a desire to please and to avoid punishment.
Watching the film Obedience there was apparent laughter from some students in the class. I believe this laughter comes not from thinking it was funny or enjoying someone elses pain, but was nervous uneasy laughter. I believe the people in the class and the teachers who laughed do so to relieve there own stress and tension.
It is also important to view how the shocks were adminitered. The volunteers would tell the learning that they were wrong and what level shock they would receive. Then they would adminiter the shock only pushing down on the switch for a split second. The pressure on the teachers mounted as the more noise came from the learner. Many volunteers stopped when the learner began to cry out and demand to be released. I do not identify with the volunteers because i would like to believe I would have walked away from the experiment at the learners initial cry for help.
-Austin E.
I think that obedience is a combination of fear and belief in authority. It was clear when watching the moving that the “teachers” listened to what the experimenter told them to do because they were the authority figures. Also, most people don’t act out and become obedient when they are afraid of the consequences or punishment. I think that going along with the group could be a part of it, but wanting to belong doesn’t have the same effect on people.
Personally, I laughed because I’ve seen the movie before and I knew that the “learners” were actors and it wasn’t real. The first time I watched the movie I was informed before the movie started that the “learners” were actors so not for one minute did I believe this experiment was real. However, in this case I think that most people watching the movie laughed because they were nervous and didn’t know another way to express their emotion of not knowing what was going on behind the wall, in the same way that the “teachers” reacted to the “learners”.
As the volunteers administered the shocks, they didn’t seem to mind in the beginning. However, once the severity increased you could tell there was some hesitation in hitting the switch because they didn’t want to inflict pain on the “learner”. Once the “learner” started reacting by yelling for them to stop, the volunteers kept telling the experimenter that they wanted to stop. They were really worried but mostly because they thought that they were responsible for whatever was being done.
As the experiment continued, the volunteers were pressured to go on despite the fact that the “learner” kept yelling and screaming about his heart problems. Almost all of the volunteers stopped and said they didn’t want to go on, but with some persuasion majority of them kept going. The ones that didn’t keep going claimed that they didn’t care about the money or the experiment; they didn’t want to keep inflicting this kind of pain.
I didn’t really identify with any of the volunteers in the movie. I’ve never been put in that situation before and I don’t think I would feel comfortable if I was. Being blind to the fact that the shock was not actually being administered, I would’ve stopped fairly early on in the experiment because I would not want to inflict pain like that on someone who’s already screaming. I would never have continued when they stopped answering, regardless if I knew I was responsible or not.
In the video "Obedience", the willingness of the volunteers to continue following instructions was caused by a fear of punishment. Many of the teachers insisted that the experiment be stopped but when Milgram told them it was essential to continue, very few actually stopped. The reason that they continued was because Milgram was very firm when he told them that they must continue and as long as the teacher was not the one getting shocked, they were willing to play along, the same way the Germans were willing to go along with the holocaust as long as they weren't the ones being harmed.
The reason that many students laughed during the video was to show relief that someone else was "on the spot". Surely no one would be laughing if they were the one in the video getting shocked. I found it interesting that some of the teachers were laughing when they heard the learners yell in pain when they were shocked. Although we later learned that they were not actually getting shocked, I certainly would not be laughing if i was causing someone so much pain. Some people may think that it is funny to watch other people to get hurt or experience pain if it is not too serious which is probably why the teachers were laughing while they shocked the learner. But once the voltage was increased and the pain became less tolerable, the teachers usually insisted the experiment stop.
Because the experiment was performed by Yale, one of the most prestigious universities in the world, the teachers may have been less willing to mess up the experiment, especially after Milgram told them how essential it was to continue.
I definitely identified with some of the volunteers who were asking the questions and giving the shocks. As I watched the video I found myself asking how far I would go before I stopped the experiment. At first when the voltage was low I laughed a little bit like many of the teachers but when the learner began yelling to be let out of the experiment I would not have been able to continue the experiment.
The volunteers defiantly had no idea what they were getting into. Most of them refused to continue once the testers started shouting and the volatge got higher. But while the shouts and protests can be heard through the walls of the chambers, the volunteers began to chuckle and laugh. I guess the explaination for this is that, as a people, its funny when someone gets a little jolt of pain and yelps. Its the same with todays society and all the movies about mass murderers. why do people go and see those kinds of movies?
As they continued the expieriment, the volunteers became increasingly anxious and protested the continuation of the testing. I would definatly be concerned, like the last man shown conducting the testing, if the person in the chamber wouldnt respond or scream when 450 volts is shot through his arm.
I think what encourages obedience is the comitment of doing some thing like the volunters in the film they voluntered to do that so they were commited to do what they would told to do. I think the obedience in this case is more like the belief in authority, I belive that the people that continued the experiment continued just because they kept telling them to do so if they would be like"Ok, do you think you are done,that's good" they would have stopped.
I think that laughter was a motive of embarrassment to where people can go if they have some one motivating themm to. I felt embarrased of how many people went through the end of the experiment because they hurt the screamming and just kept going.
Some of the volunters laughed wile they were adminitering the shocks maybe as a sign of tension. When they hurt the yelling of the learner they were concerned and asked to check if he was ok.
The pressure on them was that they were into an experiment and they had to continue so the experiment could be validated. some decided to stop as they hurt the pain and thought that if that were them they would want the teacher to stop.
Yes I did identify with some of the volunteers in the experiment. I would feel the same thing if I was to hurt some and hear their pain, I would want to stop right away.
I believe that obedience is a combination of a desire to please, fear, and feeling the need to be a part of a group. It varies in a lot of situations. However, in most cases, obedience is caused by fear of punishment. We learned in psych that people work on a reward and reprimand system. We do things to be rewarded or to not be reprimanded.
I believe that the laughter was not because of nervousness of the need to relieve any tension. As viewers, we were amazed at how the people were reacting to the orders and some reactions caused laughter simply because it was funny. Knowing the complete situation its easier to laugh just because of amusement. However, if we were in the seat of the "teacher", the laughter would have certainly been caused because of nervousness.
Many of the volunteers administered the tests willingly until they heard a reaction from the "learner". They didnt want to inflict pain on the other person even if it meant losing money. One man laughed out of nervousness. He was pressured into shocking a complete stranger and it made him nervous and uncomfortable.
As the experiment continued, the teachers found themselves being pressured because the experiment "needed to continue". They believed that they HAD to carry out the experiment because of the authority figure that was present.
I can certainly agree with some of the volunteers. If i were to be put on the spot then i would surely be nervous. The pressure alone would cause me to crumble underneath the stress. As soon as i realized that i was "hurting" the learners then i would have probably reacted the same way as most of the other teachers. I wouldnt want to inflict pain on anyone, no matter what pressures are present.
I think that there are many things that encourage obedience, including the fear of punishment, the desire to please, and group membership that were mentioned in the question. Since just about everyone on Earth is in some sort of group, membership in that group does encourage obedience to the group's orders since people feel like parts of the group they are in. Also, membership in a group normally comes with rules, and in many groups, breaking these rules comes with a punishment. Also, I feel that as seen in Obedience, respect for authority increases with the prestige of the authority figure according to the results, so this may encourage obedience.
I do not know how to account for why some students have laughed, and I do not recall whether or not I laughed, or why I laughed if I did. I did not find the film very funny, but it is possible that some people might have thought it was somewhat funny, and I thought that the whole set-up was somewhat funny until the teachers' fears grew too strong.
The volunteers laughed as well. I think that this likely was because of nervous tensions since they were hurting others but they were not sadistic, but many of them were obviously nervous about this. They protested flipping the switches and tried to stop the experiment since they thought there was actually someone being shocked on the other side of the wall, and at the highest voltages, since there was no response near the end, it appeared to some teachers that they killed their learners, and as a result the teachers kept trying to see if the learners were injured or dead.
As the experiment continued, the recorded pain and the requirement to continue the experiment were both causing pressure, since the recording made it appear that the learners were in intense pain, but the teacher was told that there was no danger in the experiment and that the experiment had to continue. Because of this, some teachers continued all the way to 450 volts reluctantly, and some teachers decided to stop when they felt that the learner was in too much pain.
I identify with the teachers who wanted the experiment to stop since they thought their learners were in pain. I dislike causing pain, much like the teachers who were morally opposed to this, and if I was one of the teachers, I would probably end up being one of the teachers who refuses to continue.
Andy H.
I think that the fear of punishment, the desire to please, the need to go along with the group, and a belief in authority all deal with encouraging obedience. People mainly follow directions because they are in fear of what might happen if they defy authority. They want to blend in and not go against mainstream people. They want to be a part of a group and have the desire to please whoever is in authority over them.
I think that some students laughed as they watched the film Obedience because the whole idea that the movie presented was odd and no one really fully understood what this had to do with what we were studying at first. The voices and setup along with the clothing that the people wore was not what we had expected to see as we sat down to watch a movie in History. In this case I would not say that this laughter was a way of relieving tension or showing embarrassment. I am sure that in many cases that can be the explanation but that was no the appropriate explanation in this case.
The volunteers seemed to be disturbed and baffled at what they were doing and what they should be doing. Many of them seemed uneasy each time the experimenter told them to go on with the experiment and that it was important that they did not stop in the middle. Many of them were concerned for the student and asked the proctor many times if he should check on the student. After reaching high voltage many of the volunteers refused to go on and stopped. However, some of them fell under the peer pressure and continued on with administering the volts. There were many pressures placed on them as the experiment continued. They were under the pressure of whether or not to continue once they heard the first cry of help from the person being shocked. Many of them stopped as the first few initial cries were heard, however, as the experimenter pressured them on, a few continued. The deciding factor for many of the volunteers was the cries that came out of the students.
I did not identify with any of the volunteers I observed in Obedience. If I were ever put in the position that these volunteers were in I would have never sent a single shock to inflict pain on a person. Even though the proctor told the people they would not be responsible I would have never taken that chance of hurting someone even if it was not “my responsibility”.
I think obedience is encouraged by all of those reasons listed. It just depends on the situation that a person is put in. In some cases, like the Germans, all of those reasons were applicable.
I believe that some people laughed because of the situation that the teacher and the learner were in. The Teachers' reactions as they gave the first shock were interesting. I think another thing that was funny was the last teacher's decision to repeatedly use the highest voltage, after barely refusing to continue the test. His actions were ridiculous.
The volunteers were pressured to continue even though the learner was clearly in pain. They decided to stop when they felt as though the learner was in real danger.
I think we would all like to say that we would firmly refuse to continue the test knowing that someone was in danger, but we would not know unless we actually tried.
I think threat, desire to please, need to go along with others, and belief in authority encourages obedience because it's a natural human instinct for majority of the human beings to do what an authoratative figure is telling them to do or to go along with what everyone else is saying.
I laughed because of the "teacher's" reactions to the comments of the "learner"; when they voiced signs of pain. So it was because the teacher's reactions were funny. And I believe that the other students laughed for that reason as well because hurting another innocent individual on purpose is not a funny matter.
I don't think our laughter fits into any of these categories, but the "teachers" in the film, however, laughed because of nervousness and relief of tension, because first of all, they're not the ones getting shocked, but the nervousness comes from the fact that the teacher is the one that's hurting the other person so by laughing they're trying to relieve that tension. In their minds, it seemed that the "teachers" kept going for a while because they wanted to keep thinking that this was merely an experiment and they had to continue the experiment because they were told to do so.
At first, the volunteers laughed and joked around, but as the shocks got higher in voltage, the laughter quieted and they became concerned with the "student's" condition in the other room. Most of them kept telling the researchers to check on the person to see if they were okay; that they weren't seriously hurt, mainly because the "student" stopped answering after a certain number of shocks and that really scared some people.
The pressure was from the researches who insisted on continuing no matter what the "student" was saying in the other room. They were persistent and their tones showed seriousness, so the teachers didn't want to object. However, once the teachers felt that the "student" had had enough, they didn't want to continue because they didn't like the fact that they were hurting another person in the other room. The "student's" remarks really made a difference for the "teachers" because they were hearing their reactions to the shocks.
I did not relate to any of the volunteers because I have not been put into that situation or anything similar to it. But if I were to be put in that situation, as the teacher, I would react the same as the majority of the people in the film; I would stop after a few number of shocks because I wouldn't want to hurt another person on purpose.
I also agree with Lizzy when she talks about why the students laughed in the room. I agree with her when she says that most of the kids laughed because of the nervousness of the unknown. The students laughing was similar to the learners reacting to the students and them not knowing other ways to express their emotions.
I also agree with Marufa.. the categories listed for why there was laughter mostly applies to the "teachers", not us. The teachers were definitely just trying to relieve tension because they were so nervous about what they were doing.
I feel that obedience is a result of fear from authority. In the Milgram experiment the subjects were evidently conflicted about shcoking the "learners," but many continued on anyway despite their internal doubts. This was because the head authority figure in the experiment instilled a sense of fear and power inside the subjects which led them to continue on in hope of pleasing his wishes.
I think people laughed while watching this film beacuse it was both amusing to hear the sound of somebody saying "ouch," especially at the times when the voltage was not harmful, but also I think that it was a tension relieving response. This response is inherent in most people, that when confronted with a different and stressful situation, they will laugh because its uncomfortable.
As the volunteers administered the shocks many initially would do it without a problem and with some laughter. After the shocks became greater and the shockee's response became more distressed most of the subjects were conflicted and hesitant about doing anything further. From this point, many of the subjects choose to walk away from the shocking in harm of hurting others and other subjects choose to keep going because of the experimenters orders.
As the experiment continued they had pressure from the experimenter telling them to keep on going, and pressure was there beacuse they didnt really want to harm the other man. The people who stopped did so when they felt that it was comlpetely immoral to continue because they felt guilty for harming someone else.
I identified with the people who choose to stop after about 150 volts. This was the point when the subject in the other room said he wanted to stop, and the subjects admistering the shocks decided with a strong will that enough was enough. It was important for them to walk away and be strong like this
-Jake Jablon
I agree with Lizzy that the people administering the shocks were many times worried about themselves being responsible rather than for the well being of the person being shocked. I think this experiment demonstrated how people will continue to obey authority as long as they can differ responsibility for wrongdoings away from themselves. By having the experimentor constantly telling them that they must continue and that the "teachers" would not be responsible, many subjects felt that it was alright to continue when clearly they were conflicted. This is an important idea when looking at Nazi Germany particularly where many people felt various degrees of guilt for contributing to the holocaust, but also it is evident that people tried to put responsibility on others for their actions.
-Jake Jablon
i agree with alex about the laughter part. we as the viewers saw the situation from the outside and we knew everyone's role, so we found some parts to be amusing. It's like in those shows on tv where people do stupid stunts and get hurt. we think thats funny. However, if we were in the teacher's position, we would be laughing to relieve tension. we would be nervous to find out if the learner was really in danger.
Reading some comments today I have agreed with many of them. I agree with Zack that what encourages obedience is a mixture of all the factors: fear of punishment, a desire to please, a need to go along with the group, and a belief in authority and with Austin about the laughterfrom students in class that it was a nervous uneasy laughter.
i agree with amanda. She touched upon the "responsibility" aspect of it. I think people became more easy about testing as soon as they realized that they werent responsible for anything. However, i wouldnt want to inflict pain even if i wasnt responsible.
I agree with what Sevag said about obedience is encouraged by all of the reasons mentioned in the question and all of them were a root of the obedience in Nazi Germany.
I also agree that the situation was a little funny, but not for the same reasons Sevag thought it was funny. I feel that what was funny was just the fact that it was just a recording making the reactions to the shocks.
I also agree that the volunteers did have a lot of pressure both from the rules of the experiment and from what they thought was the learner, and that they decided to stop because they thought the learner was in danger.
However, I disagree that none of us would know whether or not we would stop. Personally, if I heard the recording and thought the learner was in danger and could be having a heart attack, I would refuse to continue.
Andy H.
I agree with Sevag's above comments. U believe that obedience is spawned from all the listed ideas and the situation is the real variable. Also, Sevag says how people laughed in the movie and in our classroom because of the situation they were in. I agree with his statement about how one of the teachers continued to administer the highest voltage shock with little resistance to the idea. I thought some volunteers stopped when they feared for the learner while others continued no matter what, obeying to the scientists commands. I also agree with Sevag that we would not know our response until we were put in such a situation.
-Austin Evans
I think that athoritative figures encourage obedience because our society has put then in such a powerful position by asuming they know what their doing and that it's the right thing to do. I think that students laughed durring the film because they were nervouse, they weren't sure what else to do. In this sittuation the laughter was a release of tension. The tension coming from not knowing what was happening, if the man who was supposidly getting shocked was allright.
The volunteers went along with the experiment untill they heard noice from the other room, at that point most of them wanted to stop. Those that went on ususally made sure that they wouldn't be held responable if anything happened to the other man before continuing.
The pressure came from the athoritative figure in the room, the experimenter. When they tried to stop, he would insist that the eperiment had to continue. Most desided to stop when the man resiving the shocks complained about his heart, they stoped when they felt that the mad was in danger of the expirement continuing.
-Taylor E.
I agree with Marufa. That the laughter in class didn't fit into any of the catigories. I think people in the class laughed because the teacher laughed and so it as going along with the group, they thught that that was the way they were suppose to act in that sittuation. However I do think that the teacher laughed as a release of tension. The tension of hurting another and not knowing if they were okay or if they should coninue or try to stop.
-Taylor E.
I think that fear of punishment and ethics encourage obedience. A need to go along with a group and a belief in authority also, but they are less common. I think people laughed during the film because it was funny. None of those explanations are appropriate. One volunteer laughed at first but was later concerned along with the other volunteers. They asked if the victim was physically OK. The pressures they faced were their moral beliefs because they were ones actually harming the victim. They decided to stop when they believed the victim could not tolerate any more shocks. I did identify with the volunteers in that I would have at least wanted someone to check to make sure the victim was not physically harmed. I also would have discontinued the experiment once the victim requested to stop.
Obedience is encouraged by the desire to please a group or figure of authority in hopes that they will get something out of it like respect or something like that. Ifeel that some laughed because our society has been some what desensitized to situations like the milgram experiment. I laughed because i had seen the milgram experiment in psych and knew that no one was getting hurt. I think that the volunteers were only laughing to try and relieve the tension of not really knowing if the people in the other room were ok. The volunteers that gave the shoks were very worried about the health of the other person getting shocked but between the man saying that he had a heart condition and the preasure to go on with the experiment from the scientists. for most of the volunteers they stoped when the man being shocked began to complain about his heart.
I agree with zack in that the scientists were really trying to get them to finish the experiment
I agree with Justin in that they volunteers felt obligated to obey because the experiment was performed at Yale. They might have thought that Yale's established reputation was worth adhering to. Maybe some needed the money also, considering only one guy mentioned it.
I think Obedience is defined differently depending on the type of person one is. Some people desire to please people so they’ll do whatever they say. This could relate to having the need to follow along with a group because you want to please everyone in the group in order to feel included. I think other people obey because of a belief in authority and they believe that whatever the authority figure tells them to do is right even if they know it’s wrong just because of their power title. This also relates to a fear of punishment. One will continue to follow authority even they know it’s wrong because they don’t want to be punished.
I think that the people who laughed during the movie in response to the patient’s cries of pain can be defined as a nervous laughter, as in they don’t really know how to respond to something that’s suppose to make your cringe. I think in this case it’s most closely related to expressing relief that someone else is receiving that pain, not them.
All the volunteers had a different reaction. The first volunteer had a strong will power and stopped as soon as he heard the patient’s first cry of pain. He didn’t question authority and just refused to continue. The last volunteer continued to inflict pain upon the patient until the doctor told him to stop. He went all the way up to the highest voltage and didn’t flinch at the patients first cries of pain. Only when the patient begged to be let out did he question authority, but when the doctor told him it was part of the procedure he continued. Even when the volunteer knew that there were something severely wrong with the patient as indicated by his nonresponse to even the most intense of pain, he continued to electrocute him. The only thing he kept asking was “ your responsible for this right?” He wanted to make sure that the doctor was responsible for anything that happened to the patient and that if the patient was dead it wouldn’t be his fault. After getting reassured each time, the volunteer continued to electrocute him. This demonstrated that the volunteer didn’t really care about the welfare of the patient, but just that he wouldn’t have to assume responsibility for it. Yet, it could also be that this volunteer can’t defy authority. He’s obedient to a an authority figure’s demands, such as the doctors, even though he knows their wrong.
I identified with one of the first volunteers. I wouldn’t be able to continue the experiment hearing the cries of pain by the patient. It doesn’t matter what the authority figure in charge demanded, I wouldn’t be able to follow through with the experiment.
I agree with Fritz and Justin, that the volunteers were more likely to follow authority because it took place at a prestigious place, Yale. They automatically assumed that the ethnics and the experiment were right just because of where it was taken place and because a doctor was conductin it. Yet, when the last volunteer questioned about the money the doctor said not to worry aboutit and he would receive it regardless so I don't think the volunteer continued for the money, but rather because he felt the need to follow authority.
I think what encourages obedience is the want to please and be accepted. People want to feel they are doing the right thing and feel this way by the response a superior person looks upon them and their reaction. People feel they have obeyed by the response a superior prevails. I think a fear of punishment does play a part to obeying, and not wanting to fail and looked upon as a failure. People definitely obey to feel accepted along with a group. As well, when an authority tells you to do something you usually do it to please as well as not be punished.
I feel like people laugh out of a sense of embarrassment and not knowing how to react. When put in an awkward position people laugh to seem like the feel comfortable however they usually do not. Laughing also shows a relief of tension which is maybe how they felt when someone other than themselves was put on the spot.
The volunteers who administered the shocks felt uncomfortable and some quite upset. They kept going but some stopped sooner than others because they realized what they were doing was wrong whether or not the person in authority told them it was okay. Most looked frightened by the screams and uncomfortable as well.
The pressure to succeed even though somebody else was in danger was placed on them as the experiment continued. They decided whether or not to stop by the sense of control they had over their own lives. If the person felt comfortable with themselves they were more likely to take control over the situation and stop. As of those who did not stop, they are quickly influenced by others just because they seem in authority.
I agree with Justin's comment about the fear of punishment. I feel like young kids today do things their parents tell them because they do not want to have to deal with consiquences such as loss of phone or car. They would rather do what they are told than disobey and be punished. I also agree with his comment about why people laughed, it is much easier to laugh at things that are not necessarily funny when it is not happening to you.
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