Dr. Stanley Milgram defined obedience as “the psychological mechanism that links individual action to political purpose.” What do you think encourages obedience? Is it fear of punishment; a desire to please; or is it a need to go along with the group? As some students watched the film Obedience, they laughed at the people receiving the shocks. How do you account for that laughter? Is it because something was funny or was there another reason? Those who study human behavior say that laughter can be a way of relieving tension, showing embarrassment or expressing relief that someone else is “on the spot.” Which explanation is most appropriate in this case? How did some of the volunteers act as they administered the shocks? What pressures were placed on them as the experiment continued? How and when did they decide to stop? Did you identify with any of the volunteers you observed in Obedience? What did you learn that you didn't know before you watched this film?
43 comments:
This is the second time ive watched "The Milgram Experiment" and it still sends the same powerful message the second time around and I understand how the experiment works a little better the second time watching it. I think that fear of punishment is what encourages people to be obedient. Nobody wants to be punished so they obey to avoid the consequences. I also believe that nervous laughter isn't so much evoked from amusement, but more from either discomfort and confusion. It could also be a way of relieving tension. I was surprised that some of the volunteers kept administering the shocks even though they knew the person was in pain (or thought they were) which shows that they were just trying to obey the doctor's rules. The pressures placed on the volunteers were that they paid to do the experiment and felt that they needed to do as what they were told. I think they decided to stop when the student either screamed on the other end or just compeltely stopped responding at all. The teacher was so influenced to think that the learner was just in pain, not so much in danger, so that is what caused them to keep going.
I agree with Ellery that the fear of their punishment is what made a lot of people obey and so what their told to do.
After watching "The Milgram Experiment" I think it was shocking to see how many of the teachers didnt stop when they heard the learner was in pain and yelling to have them stop. I think this relates to how the Nazis had control over people to make them obey. The people running the experiment kept telling them they had to continue and they were pressuring them to do what they wanted them to do. I think this is sort of similar to what the Nazis would do since they would pressure people into doing what they wanted them to do and they were successful at pressuring them into doing those things because they were scared of what their punishment would be.
Amanda is definitely right when she says that this relates to the nazis. It definitely is just like the nazi's where people obeyed the nazi's to avoid any sort of punishment which caused so many bystanders to exist
I agree with Ellery when she says that watching this experiment definitely sends a powerful message no matter how many times it is watched. I also agree that fear of punishment is what encourages people to be obedient. No one wants to be punished so they do whatever they can to avoid this. I also think it has to do with wanting to fit in with the crowd. If someone is told to do something because everyone has to or they have to then they will because they don't want to be the odd man out. Being the odd man out is somtimes the best way to go but people are so afraid to be that person.
I also agree that this experiment relates to the Nazis. After several times of the instructor saying "please continue," the teachers would continue every time even though the man on the other side was crying out for help. Personally, I felt horrible watching a man get hurt for no reason and no one was doing anything about it and the teacher was less and less concerned as the test went on. This experiment shows that authority figures can influence a person so much to hurt someone else.
I believe laughter shows many things, but in this case, the reasons that make sense to me are from embarrassment or an uncomfortable situation and expresses relief that someone else is "on the spot". Even though the volunteers laughed, it was not because they liked causing pain. The volunteers were cautious to continue after they heard the student’s shouts, which show some compassion toward others. Although they did follow through with the experiment in the end, as it is what they were told to do. I learned that humans have natural tendencies and behaviors that can be changed, like the Nazis learned to do and taught others. It was interesting to see humans behave like that and draw attention to something we do.
I think in many circumstances laughter can be used to establish many things. Laughter can be used to encourage obediance through fear of punishment, a desire to please, or simply a need to go along with a group. I think that all those things can establish why a person may laugh in some situation, but for this case, the laughter seems like it was mainly used for "going along with a group." Similar to the nazis, they held major power over the nation, and many people obeyed their orders, because of the power that they held. Since many of the population were generally composed of nazis, like doctors, and other people from the hierarchy, others felt a sense of pressure, or need to go along with this group called Nazis because of where it stood in terms of social classes. In this case if someone with higher power like the nazis or the experiment conductor was giving you orders to follow, this stood out as something that had to be done by the person given orders to. This was simply because whoever disobeyed any order from a higher power could've been shunned or worse, killed because of the act of disobediance. In the Milgram Experiment, laughter was used to show a sense of relief to the "teacher." They tried to relieve themselves of the situation by laughing at the shocks that were administered throughout the experiment. The way that they felt uncomfortable began to seep through their nervous laughter because of the pressures they were facing. The pressure placed on the "teacher" were of many. From the conductor of the experiment telling the "teacher" to go on, and to not stop the experiment, to the "learner" yelling from the shocks that the "teacher" thought he had been giving to him were all aspects of pressure that contributed to the nervous laughter. These kinds of pressures are what made the "teacher" obey in administering the shocks throughout the end of the experiment. I was also surprised to see the ones that continued further on to the end of the experiment ended up being those of a higher class and those who chose to end the experiment earlier on were of those of a lower social class.
I agree with Ellery on that aspect of obedience. No one wants to be punished, so they obey orders, because they fear the consequences that coincide with it.
I think that what encourages obedience is the desire to please, and my view of this is heavily reflected in the film. From what I saw, the men continued to administer the shocks because Dr. Milgram kept insisting that they continue. They kept going because they didn’t want to disobey the person who was running the experiment and therefore be chastised for it.
The students’ laughter during the film was not because they thought it was humorous, it was their way of getting rid of nervous energy. It is human nature to react like that in an uncomfortable or upsetting situation. Therefore the explanation of laughter as a way of relieving tension is most appropriate, because it’s their method of coping with the situation.
Many of the volunteers’ body language showed that they looked very stressed and they also would put their head in their hands. The first time the “learner” was shocked, the volunteer would immediately turn to Dr. Milgram looking very concerned. Obviously they were very pressured to continue with the experiment, but Dr. Milgram insisting that they had to continue was probably the most stressing of all, because it made the volunteers question their own conscience on whether they should listen to this doctor or save the person in pain. They would stop once the learner’s cries were very severe, but before they stopped they had words with Dr. Milgram, them saying over and over how this man was in pain and it must be stopped. Eventually they would stop after this long conversation, and they would leave the room very unhappy.
I learned from this film that the power that an authority figure has over someone could greatly influence their values and decisions. Like the film, it could even make them administer 450-volt shocks to another human being without seriously resisting the authority figure.
The Milgram Expirament(sp) really shocked me. The biggest thing that i focused on while watching this was the moral dilemma that these 'teachers' were going through while they were reading the words and shocking the 'student'. I personally don't think that i would be able to live with myself knowing that i had to do this/knowing how much i hurt another human being. To me, even though it was an interesting thing to see, its just sick. I couldn't believe that at all.
I also agree with Amanda. The teacher and the person running the experiment are just like Nazi's. They know what they are doing, and most of them don't even do anything to stop it. It doesn't make any sense to me.
I think obedience is encouraged by all three; the fear of punishment, a desire to please, and the desire to fit in with the group. We live in a world where we are rewarded for following the rules and punished for breaking them, consequently most people follow the rules and those who don't are more often than not punished for breaking them. With this mindset, people are going to follow the rules to save themselves the humility and punishment. Also sometimes it is easier to obey rather than stand up for your beliefs by taking that risk of putting yourself out there for others to judge you. In this case I think many people didn't believe they had the option to stop, they feared what would happen to them if they did, its instinct to protect yourself over protecting a stranger.
I believe people laughed at this experiment because they were uncomfortable with what was going on, it's hard to watch someone not want to do something, its also hard to listen to the pain of one suffering. By laughing we can relieve the stress/anxiety from what we are seeing.
The volunteers acted in this same way questioning the authority and wondering just how bad what they were doing really was. They had the pressure of hurting someone for no good reason. The volunteers all seemed very uncomfortable with the experiment some voiced their opinions and some did not, some laughed and some cried but nonetheless they were all uncomfortable.
I learned that sometimes it is very difficult to stand up for your beliefs and if an authoritative figure is telling you something is okay, when you believe it is wrong, you're more apt to be swayed into something you don't want to do.
After watching The Milgram Experiment i was left in shock! Not because people kept going but because they stopped. For some reason i just expected most people to keep going because one the did not know the student and the were getting payed. the last man to go was what i expected from most of the people participating they would feel bad and guilty but push on because they were told to do so and again they were getting payed.
I agree with Ellery about the Film sending a powerful message and how many of the teachers feared stopping because someone with more power was telling them to do it.
What shocked me about this film was that the teachers all knew that the learner had a potentially serious heart condition and still so many of them continued with the experiment. They were fully aware that they were putting the person in serious danger, but they still kept going. I thought that more of the people would stop.
I agree with what Kara said. I thought that it was awful how many of the teachers in this experiment were willing to hurt another human being just because they were told to do so.
The teachers laughed during the experiment and so do some of us high schoolers while watching it was because we were put in a situation were we didn't know what to do and felt helpless. The teachers were unable to help the student and didn't know how to respond to the noises that they made when they were shocked. The teachers were in an uncomfortable, awkward situation where they were forced to either obey the scientist and carry on with the experiment or refuse to give another shock and participate in the experiment anymore. Teacher sinew that they were doing the wrong thing and hurting someone which they did express but they were always convinced to continue on with the experiment after complaining and voicing concern to the scientist.
I don't agree with Kissila when she said that the main reason for laughter was to "go along with a group." The teacher had no group or person to base their actions off of. I believe that the reason for laughter was because the teachers were put in a situation that made them uncomfortable and nervous. Laughter was used as a form of relief to take away from the pain that they were inflicting on the student.
I have watched the Milgrim Experiment in Psychology last semester. Its great to see it again to keep in the back of our minds as we enter the part of the course where we really see how the Jews were treated. It was almost unbelievable to witness the "teacher" continue the punishments after he is assured that he will not be blamed for anything that happens to the student.
I agree with Ellery in that this film stuck with me a lot more this second time that I've watched it.
I have previously watched the Milgram Experiment in my psych class. Both times I have seen it I have found it extremely intriguing and also hard to watch at times. Even though all along I knew it was a tape recorder screaming in pain and no one was actually getting shocked, it was still hard to watch and listen to. It was a very stressful and emotionally draining experience for the teacher. It was shocking, yet at the same time I was not surprised when the last subject continued to "shock" the learner when the experimenter stated that he would take all responsibility. This situation is very similar to how Hitler was putting his Nazis in this position. The Nazis were only "following orders" as they stated during the Nuremberg trials, when they had their own voices, mindset, and choice to stop listening to Hitler and start believing in what was the right thing to do. This experiment, though unethical and immoral, was highly rewarding due to the results shown about how humans respond to commands and how they behave when put in pressure-filled situations.
I agree with what Kassandra is saying. I agree that the fear of failing and punishment will drive an individual to do the extremes. The desire to please also plays a role in this situation. People are always trying to live up to their elders and to make others proud, when they should be concerned about themselves and think about what they are physically doing before making the decision to follow through with their action. The Nazi party members may have thought hard about what they were actually doing to the Jews, blacks, cripples, and mentally challenged-and questioned their conscience-but the fear of punishment for failing to follow orders was constantly inflicted upon them. Because of that fear, Hitler won the battle, and that is part of the reason why Hitler's rein and course of action lasted for so long.
I agree with what Kassandra is saying. I agree that the fear of failing and punishment will drive an individual to do the extremes. The desire to please also plays a role in this situation. People are always trying to live up to their elders and to make others proud, when they should be concerned about themselves and think about what they are physically doing before making the decision to follow through with their action. The Nazi party members may have thought hard about what they were actually doing to the Jews, blacks, cripples, and mentally challenged-and questioned their conscience-but the fear of punishment for failing to follow orders was constantly inflicted upon them. Because of that fear, Hitler won the battle, and that is part of the reason why Hitler's rein and course of action lasted for so long.
***i forgot to include my name in my post so i just posted it again sorry***
I think it is a natural instinct for humans to follow an authority figure and that is what encourages obedience. I think the laughter during the film was a release of tension caused by watching someone shock another person. I think this is true because some of the volunteers also showed the same type of nervous laughter when they were being tested. This video taught me that "doing the right thing" is harder than people make it out to be. None of the people wanted to shock another person but when told to by an authority figure they did so even though they new it was wrong.
I agree with Emily, I was also shocked by the fact that the teacher knew the student had a heart condition and stills proceeded with the experiment when the student wanted to stop.
I watched this documentary when I took psychology last semester but relating this to the Nazi regime gives it more of a personal impact. I was very relieved when the 2nd subject, the teacher, was reluctant to continue the experiment on the basis that he has a choice; however, I was troubled by the final subject of the film. He was persistent in doling out the shock treatment only needing a simple reassurance that he would not be to blame. This is the same mentality that inhibited those in Nazi, Germany such as the HJ. I am curious as to whether these results would still apply if the experiment was recreated in a modern setting. I would hope the answer would be no, but human nature is static.
I agree with Greg and Emily. The heart condition should have been a bleak warning sign, but the fact that the subjects continued their pursuit of the shock treatment proves Milgram's theory about human behavior.
Catie, I was also wondering what the outcome would be if they did it in the present. I would hope that more recent results would prove differently, but human nature has not completely changed since then; people are still reluctant to go against authority and stand for themselves.
For me, this film was uncomfortable for me to watch because my feelings hurt for the "teachers" as they struggled to administer the test. I think that obedience is a fear of punishment and a desire to please. The laughter in the classroom was nervous laughter, because we don't instinctively know how to react when another person is being hurt and making noises. I think it also relieves tension. While teachers administered the test, they had a hard time punishing the test takers because they could tell they were being harmed. However, they were conflicted because they were repetitively told to complete their task, and I think they feared punishment. They would decide to stop when they felt it was too much for themselves to handle.
I agree with Emily. I found it hard to watch that the teachers would continue to hurt the test takers even though they told the teachers they had heart conditions and were in serious pain. But in the teachers' defense, it is hard to disobey when you are told to do something, especially at a place like Yale!
This is also the second time i seen this film. Since I watched it the first time in psych, I wasnt looking to see the correlation to the Nazis. However I did see how easy it was for the experimentor, the person in power, make the teacher go on simlpy by accepting responsibility for the fate of the learner. Personally I cant understand what was going through the teachers head when he was shocking some person behind the wall. The teacher has no excuse really because they can hear the pain they are causeing the learner, and continuing to go on is wrong no matter what.
I agree with Erin. Eventhough the learner was a recording, it was still hard for me to see the teacher flicking the switch knowing they were causing pain to another human being. I was also amazed at how easy it was for the experimentor to get some of the subjects to keep going through with the experimant and how high the number of subjects that went all the way up to 435 volts.
This is also my second time experiencing this film. In psychology last semester, we watched a version of this experiment that combined clips of the original experiment with clips from a new experiment conducted sometime in the 2000s with the same intent. Both times that the experiment was conducted, it pointed to the fact that obedience stems from obligation. These men felt obligated to continue because they were captive to the experiment. In the modernized version of this experiment, of course there were a few that raised their voices to their right to choose being disrespected, but most subjects reacted just as they did in the original experiment.
What I have learned from studying this film multiple times is that obedience can be immediate. That human beings do not have to have something drilled into their heads in order to drive someone to harm another human being. $4.50 and a simple "please continue" is enough. I think the most major part of the effectiveness of the experiment was in teaching the subjects that dissension was useless; when they asked to leave, they were politely asked to continue. The experimenters came prepared to fight off every excuse the subjects could find in order to not continue, rendering any attempt to go against their instructions invalid.
There is, I believe, an intrinsic desire to capitulate to the perceived authority figure within each individual unless they are already at or are aiming for that position; the lab coat and unrelenting demeanor of the scientist was likely a strong contributor in that regard. As people we like to have guidance, some semblance of order in our lives, and the presence of someone who presumably has the situation under control was probably an excuse not to have to make difficult decisions on their own. Having the willpower to reject the inhumane commands issued by the scientist was rare indeed.
I think that the laughter arose from the assurance that they were spared the punishment, and could thus subconsciously ensure their own success and survival. It's why so many people enjoy slapstick comedy--those who are punished are connected to the idea that they deserve it, and this subliminal sense of being the righteous likely influenced the giddiness so many exhibited.
I agree with Zoe that obedience can and will be immediate, which cannot be ignored. Despite the self-assurances of many a person that "I'd never do that, I'd just get up and leave because I'm a good person," actually doing so is quite the different story. We can't afford to let our moral guard down in similar events; unfortunately, it seems to be the case that doing the right thing just isn't as clear cut as it seems. The rights of, say, the LGBTQ community are still oppressed to a point, yet there are no logical arguments for it; most if not all opponents claim obedience to the Christian God, which represents the ultimate concept of authority. Do what God does, love what God loves, but most importantly--hate what God hates. It's a twisted interpretation of scripture for sure, but an unsettlingly common one.
Like Ellery, this was the second time I watched this film. However, after we discussed how it was similar to the Nazi mentality, I watched the film with a new perspective. This time scared me more than last because it is similar to the conformity which the Nazis displayed in Germany. The last person to do the experiment I think is what really got me. I was so angry at that man for continuing. Yes, there was no one there, but what if there was? He kept saying that he didn't want to continue, so he should have stopped. It was like the other man said; I have a choice. This man had the choice to stop and didn't. I at one point wanted to just yell at him to tell him to stop. This kind of conformity to authority I believe is a human downfall. I even started to think about if I just always do what authority figures tell me to do without question. its different, but it can lead to this if we're not careful. I believe it was important to watch this film, even a second time.
This was not the first time that I have seen the Milgram Experiment. The first time I saw the film I thought that the teacher was actually shocking the student. The second time around I knew that the student was not getting shocked but I was laughing nervously still. I think I was laughing nervously because the last man that we saw in the film kept going on with the test. The only reason why the man kept going was because Milgram told the man that he was responsible for what happened to the student. What if Milgram had not said that? Would the teacher have still shocked the student? In my opinion the teacher would not have shocked the student if the teacher knew he was responsible.
I respectfully have to disagree with Elise. The teacher was forced to make a decision and unfortunately he chose the wrong one. You could see it in the teacher’s eyes that it was hurting him as much as it was his students. It was sad to see the man continue on with the testing. However, if I were pressured into doing something like that I can’t say I would stop the testing to check on the student.
I thought that "The Milgram Experiment" was very interesting to watch. I think that people are obedient because they want to go along with everyone else, because if you do you feel different from the rest of the group. Although the teacher had some reservations about shocking the learner, the man running the experiment encouraged him to go on, because it was "part of the experiment". I think that the teacher's need to please the mentor along with the need to go along with what was "supposed" to happen in the experiment is what made the teacher follow the procedure. I also think that laughing at other's pain comes from the feeling of relief that the spotlight's not on them, and that people can get nervous at what's happening to others.
I agree with Michael. If the mentor wasn't there to persuade and pressure the teacher, I don't think that the teacher would have done it. I think this is because the need to go along with a group wouldn't be present, since it would only be the teacher individually harming the learner.
As I'm sure most people were, I was suprised at the amount of people that actually went all the way to 450 volts. I noticed a few other things while I was watching too, for example people only started to complain after the learner became verbal. Also a strong motivator for these people was the experimentor saying he'd take all the responsibility should something happen.
I think the film did a somewhat poor job at showing many of the results of the experiment. According to the handout, something like half of the participants went to the maximum voltage and none of the participants stopped before 150 volts. The initial section of the film seemed to emphasize the denial of the participants whereas only the final display showed someone willing to go all the way. The film thus seemed to understate the ramifications of the experiment.
The experiment itself was an interesting comparison to a series of experiments conducted by researchers in the 1990s studying a phenomenon they called "right-wing authoritarianism" in which persons with high RWA scores were found to be much more likely to cause global crises and nuclear wars in simulation games. This comparison could indicate that the tendency to follow authority without question could lead to negative results even in situations where there is not a present authority figure.
When i watched The Milgram Experiment, I thought that no one should be punished and that they should be avoid getting punished. I couldn't believe that some of the volunteers would keep going with the experiment and shock the other peron if they get it wrong. I think that the teacher should of told him to stop.
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